Gerald Honigman is a Florida educator who has done extensive doctoral work in Middle East studies, has lectured on numerous university and other platforms. He has debated many of the best Arab and pro-Arab academics in public debates and on television. Mr. Honigman is widely published in academic journals, magazines, newspapers and other publications.
Totally misread/misunderstood
3 angels come to Abraham
He greets them all
Washes all their feet - read your own quote "yourselves"; its a plural you
verse 5 end: "....... and they said" So do , as thou hast said"
Feeds them all [ end v8]
One comes to cure Abraham after his circumcision
One to bring tidings that his wife will bear child one year hence
The last goes to destroy Sodom etc
One angel per job!
Know that curing and rescue fall under same category and the angel who cured Abraham [ Rafael - means Gods healer] also rescued Lot
God is appearing tp Abraham via these 3 angels
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Re J
Just for starters -- his behaviour with the moneylenders
Second his rudenes to his mother/parents
His defiance of tradition/ acting against the authorities of that time
You want the whole caboodle Ill post it again
Charismatic he may have been but a nice guy - forget it
Just for starters -- his behaviour with the moneylenders
"You have turned my Father's House into a den of thieves."
The moneylenders/money changers were profiting for their own benefit. Selling of artifacts and sacrificial animals on Holy Ground for self-gain was not in accord with what God's House of Worship was meant to be. This goes on today! People have turned religion into a business.
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Second his rudenes to his mother/parents
A matter of interpretation on how Yeshua's response is understood. When His mother worriedly confronted Him for staying behind in the synagogue He responded that she should be aware that He was to be going about His Father's business. Though He was young, He was still of age to be among the learned Rabbis and to be conversing with them about the things of God.
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His defiance of tradition/ acting against the authorities of that time
As mentioned in an earlier post, Yeshua chided religious leaders for placing more importance on traditions and rituals that placed a burden upon the people and of which the 'religious leaders" did not even abide by themselves!
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Charismatic he may have been but a nice guy - forget it
It's called Righteous Anger. Although God is slow to anger, He has been known to rebuke those who should know better and excercise His Wrath against a wicked and unbelieving people at times.
_________________ There Is Only One Truth Starman3000
With respect, noone, even a JEW, can understand the OT without the ORAL LAW- an interpretation passed down from MT Sinai , generation to generation by mouth until it was eventually written down
There was a famous Rabbi from the 12 century who codified the explanations in a simplistic manner & he is known as Rashi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi
If you try to understand the Torah in a literal sense you will make MANY errors of understanding - there are items hidden from the routine manner of comprehension
The deepest meanings are to be found within the Zohar[ Kabbala] but between us we only need the basic
What I have told you is inherent to the faith and comprehension of a Jew
Re the 2 angels who went to Sodom: you did not read what I wrote
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Know that curing and rescue fall under same category and the angel who cured Abraham [ Rafael - means Gods healer] also rescued Lot
-- one angel went to destroy and the other was the very same who came to cure Abraham recued Lot
As for Starmans tongue in cheek response to J's sauciness - Just read how J behaved . There are other ways of handling a situation without gettig angry and being physically violent and rude
As for Starmans tongue in cheek response to J's sauciness - Just read how J behaved . There are other ways of handling a situation without gettig angry and being physically violent and rude
Hi David,
There are times when handling a situation requires getting one's attention by calling them on the Truth. Yeshua expressed a righteous anger over what men were doing through profiting with the money tables at The Temple of God.
Yeshua did not physically touch any of the men in any way but rebuked them and turned their money tables over so as to have them take their business elsewhere. Had He asked them in a cordial tone they would have laughed at Him and scorned His Authority to remove them from the premises.
The Truth is: Few of us can say that we have never gotten angry, violent and rude at one time in our lives. I personally confess that I have my own regrets for those times when my attitude was unbecoming of a professing believer in God. Never physically harming anyone but sure getting angry and giving them a "piece of my mind." I was wrong and asked God's forgiveness as well as asked those who I offended to forgive me.
Conclusion: Yeshua had every reason to respond as He did if it is True that The Temple of God is on Holy Ground and is to be a House of Worship - not a house to be turned into a merchandising business venture.
_________________ There Is Only One Truth Starman3000
With respect, noone, even a JEW, can understand the OT without the ORAL LAW- an interpretation passed down from MT Sinai , generation to generation by mouth until it was eventually written down
Why would YHWH have let His Law wait to be written down 2,500 years after He gives it? Especially since Torah was written down right away. Joshua 8:34&35 we're told:
And afterward he read all the words of the Law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the Law. There was not a word of all that Moses commanded, which Joshua read not before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, and the little ones, and the strangers that were conversant among them.
If Joshua was able to read ALL the words of the Law, then doesn't that mean that ALL the words were already written down?
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There was a famous Rabbi from the 12 century who codified the explanations in a simplistic manner & he is known as Rashi
Was Rashi or any of the other rabbi's that make-up the oral law flawless? You compared the Renewed Covenant with Islam when you wrote, "One makes out that the NT & Islam are perfection"... should Judaism be lumped in with Islam also?
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If you try to understand the Torah in a literal sense you will make MANY errors of understanding - there are items hidden from the routine manner of comprehension
With respect, I trust what is said in Devarim/Deu. 12:32 "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." I don't see the need to add to or take away from the Torah.
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one angel went to destroy and the other was the very same who came to cure Abraham recued Lot
Bereshith 19:13 says, For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the YHWH; and the YHWH hath sent us to destroy it.
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There are other ways of handling a situation without gettig angry and being physically violent and rude
Doesn't YHWH get very angry many times in the Torah and the Prophets? Yahushua never hit anyone and you aren't mentioning all the times He healed people, or the time He wept b/c Miriam was weeping when her brother Lazarus died and then He raises him from the dead, or that He came to be the ultimate sacrificial Lamb b/c He loves us so much.
not a house to be turned into a merchandising business venture.
Actually the realm of the Temple precinct was very involved in money and goods
People , Jews & non Jews,as you know brought sacrifices , be it a pigeon , sheep etc or first fruit offerings
Sometimes they did not have the animal so they came with money value- so occasionally change had to be given ie a sacrifice of a pigeon was worth say $ 10 but the guy only had $20 note on him.
Not all the animal remained in the hands of the Priest - the rest was given to the one bringing the sacrifice ; he could now sell what remained to help affray his B&B in Jerusalem--- alll these transactions were taking place within or near to the Temple precinct
Just a sample to start to appreciate the complexities
Jews keep kosher bUT NOWHERE in the OT does it explain what this is or how the animal has to be killed, cooked etc-- explain the rules of not mixing meat and milk
All we are told is what SORT of living creature may or not be be eaten
Jews put on tefillin [ phylacteries] every day because the OT tells us to do so
NOWHERE in the OT does it describe how these are constructed & how to wear them
Jews keep Passover and are told to eat matza [ unleavened bread]
NOWHERE in the OT does it instruct us how to bake this 'bread ' so that it stays unleavened
All these things have come down by word of mouth from the time of Sinai
Why do think Moses with Jethros help set up teams of leaders to assist in understanding the OT???
I believe the Messiah was justified in His actions. A place that is considered holy ground shouldn't be made into a business, one should have enough respect to do any business transactions before and off the Temple grounds. He tells them that they've made it into "a den of theives"... this tells me that it was probally a situation like going to the movie's, ball games, or the zoo where the mark-up on the popcorn and coke is outrageous. They were probally raising the normal cost on the animals and the moneychangers where probally charging interest... quite the zoo.
There was one other difference between the first tablets and the second. According to tradition, when Moses was given the first tablets, he was given only Torah shebikhtav, the "written Torah". At the time of the second tablets, he was given Torah she-be'al peh, the Oral Torah as well: “R. Jochanan said: G-d made a covenant with Israel only for the sake of the Oral Law, as it says : "For by the mouth of these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel"” (Exodus. 34:27).
The difference between the Written and Oral Torah is profound. The first is the word of G-d, with no human contribution. The second is a partnership - the word of G-d as interpreted by the mind of man. The following are two of several remarkable passages to this effect:
R. Judah said in the name of Shmuel: Three thousand traditional laws were forgotten during the period of mourning for Moses. They said to Joshua: "Ask" (through ruach hakodesh, the holy spirit). Joshua replied, "It is not in heaven." They said to Samuel, "Ask." He replied, "These are the commandments - implying that no prophet has the right to introduce anything new." (B.T. Temurah 16a) “If a thousand prophets of the stature of Elijah and Elisha were to give one interpretation of a verse, and one thousand and one sages were to offer a different interpretation, we follow the majority: the law is in accordance with the thousand-and-one sages and not in accordance with the thousand prophets.” (Maimonides, Commentary to the Mishneh, Introduction)
Any attempt to reduce the Oral Torah to the Written - by relying on prophecy or Divine communication - mistakes its essential nature as the collaborative partnership between G-d and man, where revelation meets interpretation. Thus, the difference between the two precisely mirrors that between the first and second tablets. The first were Divine, the second the result of Divine-human collaboration. This helps us understand a glorious ambiguity. The Torah says that at Sinai the Israelites heard a "great voice velo yasaf" (Deut. 5:1. Two contradictory interpretations are given of this phrase. One reads it as "a great voice that was never heard again", the other as "a great voice that did not cease" - i.e. a voice that was always heard again. Both are true. The first refers to the Written Torah, given once and never to be repeated. The second applies to the Oral Torah, whose study has never ceased.
Jews keep kosher bUT NOWHERE in the OT does it explain what this is or how the animal has to be killed, cooked etc-- explain the rules of not mixing meat and milk
Deu 14:21 Ye shall not eat [of] any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that [is] in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou [art] an holy people unto the YHWH thy Elohim. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Lev 3:17 [It shall be] a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.
Kosher means fit and the Torah details what is fit for food and as far as the exact way to kill the animal, the oral law has many different ways of killing the animal (pressing,pausing,piercing,tearing,covering) which virtually covers the gamut so I don't see how a law even needs to exist for that.
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Jews put on tefillin [ phylacteries] every day because the OT tells us to do so
NOWHERE in the OT does it describe how these are constructed & how to wear them
Deu 11:18 ¶ Therefore shall ye lay up these My words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
You wrote, "If you try to understand the Torah in a literal sense you will make MANY errors of understanding". I believe the Torah doesn't get into the details of the phylacteries b/c it isn't commanding a literal physical thing, it's more of a spiritual thing. We should have His Torah bound in our minds and hearts 24/7 which then shows by our actions/hands.
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Jews keep Passover and are told to eat matza [ unleavened bread]
NOWHERE in the OT does it instruct us how to bake this 'bread ' so that it stays unleavened
Lev 6:17 It shall not be baken with leaven
It's very simple to make unleavened bread... you leave out the leaven.
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All these things have come down by word of mouth from the time of Sinai
Could you explain my question about Joshua 8:34&35?
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Why do think Moses with Jethros help set up teams of leaders to assist in understanding the OT???
Because at that time every household didn't have their own written copy of the Torah but as time went on, more and more copies were being written and eventually printed so that anyone interested in learning the Torah can own and read/learn the Laws themselves.
I believe the Messiah was justified in His actions. A place that is considered holy ground shouldn't be made into a business, one should have enough respect to do any business transactions before and off the Temple grounds. He tells them that they've made it into "a den of theives"... this tells me that it was probally a situation like going to the movie's, ball games, or the zoo where the mark-up on the popcorn and coke is outrageous. They were probally raising the normal cost on the animals and the moneychangers where probally charging interest... quite the zoo.
Exactly Right. There more than likely were dishonest merchandisers taking advantage of the people who came to worship and offer sacrifices.
This has a familiar ring to a situation explained in Malachai where the religious leaders were offering poor quality sacrifices on the altars and keeping the best for themselves. The context is in the entire reading of Malachai, however, here is an example:
From Malachai Chapter 3:
verses,
6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7: Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
8: Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9: Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Note: verse 8 is widely used today to coerce people into giving money to the "church." The true context of that verse was intended as a rebuke by God against the priests of that time. Even today's religious leaders are being dishonest with the people.
_________________ There Is Only One Truth Starman3000
Diffangle
You are so way out as to be a visitor from another planet as far as thinking Jewish
There is only one way acceptable to killing an animal by Jewish law [funnily enough even the muslims acept this] so that it is FIT for eating by a Jew and it will not be found described in the OT
I know there are many Jews who do not keep the dietary laws but that is bwn them and their Maker
You quote
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Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk
Please explain what this implies to me & my fellow Jew in terms of being kosher in relation to what one may or not eat [ together or otherwise]
Also bear in mind that this phrase appears 3 times in the OT
God does not waste words - I think you would agree
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and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
-- you are denying the existence of Gods word : the word BIND is given in the imperative. Frontlets is a definitive noun- it has substance. BTW phylacteries were found at Qumran and it must be assumed that even J donned them on a daily basis as a Jew
Yes we should always act with good intentions and hopefully cognisant of an all seeing [figuratively ]God but this does not excuse a Jew from doing as he has been instructed
As for matza -- unleavened bread refers to the 'rising' when baked
All dough rises. The subject is very complicated because once again the instruction is repeated several times and God does not say meaningless words. It refers to the length of tinme one mixes water with the mix and the time permitted to bake. Also ALL leavened items are forbidden.
You should read up more .
You talk about LEARNING laws; a law by itself is meaningless
It has to be expounded to cover all eventualities
Try opening a bank account today and then try to comprehend the paperwork you just signed; & all you wanted to do was to give the bank $50.
The 'Torah' is saying 1] You may open a bank account
2] You may derive benefit from it
3] You may borrow money from a bank
But it does not say how the account will be opened or what you will have to do to let the bank give you money
It does not define' benefit' or 'borrow'
This is contained in the oral law [ of banking]passed down & modified accordingly from the first bank ever opened
Just type into Google " Pesach preparation / rules & regulations/leaven /unleavened bread"
Should keep you busy until our New Year
David, before I address the things you're talking about I would greatly appreciate a response to a previous question I had for you... was Rashi and the other rabbi's that make-up the oral law infallible?
Hi
Fair ?
All human beings are prone to error yes BUT even the most extreme & superior/ most respected Rabbis of today will never find fault with Rashi or others because they feel they are not on the same level of understanding /' sanctity as they were. We say that persons such as Rashi were divinely inspired. Their output was prodigious in all fields.ie medicine ,philosophy,maths,. They hardly slept.
Any discussion or disagreement was for 'heavens sake'
But must remember that Rashi 12th century was only clarifying info already in existence - printing had just been discovered; it opened up a new world of transferring knowledge.What had been passed down by word of mouth was now put into book form- I personally knew a Rabbi who knew our Gemorrah [ 6 enormous volumes]of discussion /commentary by heart just tell him a page no & line and he would tell you what was written there .
Is the Pope infallible? To Catholics no but to muslims yes
True I do not agree with everything that I see written but I am not of that calibre that I can stand up and say " no way"
All I know is that by acceptance of such understandings , following the learned Rabbis 'interpretations', over the last 3000 years the Jewish people has survived calamities which wiped out others - and any onlooker will say its a miracle
It is this observance which has maintained us
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. Two contradictory interpretations are given of this phrase. One reads it as "a great voice that was never heard again", the other as "a great voice that did not cease" - i.e. a voice that was always heard again. Both are true. The first refers to the Written Torah, given once and never to be repeated. The second applies to the Oral Torah, whose study has never ceased.
